There is no legitimate State of Israel!


This short article makes such an important point that I just had to reproduce it in full here.  Israel’s very existence as a nation state is illegitimate!


On Monday 12 October, Prime Minister Netanyahu opened the Knesset’s winter session by blasting the Goldstone Report that accuses Israel of committing war crimes and vowing that he would never allow Israelis be tried for them. But that was not his main message. It was an appeal, delivered I thought with a measure of desperation, to the “Palestinian leadership”, presumably the leadership of “President” Abbas and his Fatah cronies, leaders who are regarded by very many if not most Palestinians as American-and-Israeli stooges at best and traitors at worst.

Netanyahu again called on this leadership to agree to recognise Israel as a Jewish state, saying this was, and remains, the key to peace. And he went on and on and on about it.

“For 62 years the Palestinians have been saying ‘No’ to the Jewish state. I am once again calling upon our Palestinian neighbours – say ‘Yes’ to the Jewish state. Without recognition of the Israel as the state of the Jews we shall not be able to attain peace… Such recognition is a step which requires courage and the Palestinian leadership should tell its people the truth – that without this recognition there can be no peace… There is no alternative to Palestinian leaders showing courage by recognising the Jewish state. This has been and remains the true key to peace.”

As Ha’aretz noted in its report, Netanyahu’s demand for Palestinian acceptance of Israel as a Jewish state is for him “a way on ensuring recognition of Israel’s right to exist as opposed to merely recognising Israel” (my emphasis). This, as Ha’aretz added, is the recognition which Netanyahu and many other Israelis see as the real core of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

In the name of pragmatism, willingness to “merely to recognise” Israel – meaning to accept and live in peace with an Israel inside its pre-June ‘67 borders – has long been the formal Palestinian and all-Arab position. Why does it stop short of recognising Israel’s “right to exist”, and why, really, does it matter so much to Zionism that Palestinians recognise this right?

The answer is in the following.

According to history as written by the winner, Zionism, Israel was given its birth certificate and thus legitimacy by the UN Partition Resolution of 29 November 1947. This is propaganda nonsense.

  • In the first place the UN without the consent of the majority of the people of Palestine did not have the right to decide to partition Palestine or assign any part of its territory to a minority of alien immigrants in order for them to establish a state of their own.
  • Despite that, by the narrowest of margins, and only after a rigged vote, the UN General Assembly did pass a resolution to partition Palestine and create two states, one Arab, one Jewish, with Jerusalem not part of either. But the General Assembly resolution was only a proposal – meaning that it could have no effect, would not become policy, unless approved by the Security Council.
  • The truth is that the General Assembly’s partition proposal never went to the Security Council for consideration. Why not? Because the U.S. knew that, if approved, it could only be implemented by force given the extent of Arab and other Muslim opposition to it; and President Truman was not prepared to use force to partition Palestine.
  • So the partition plan was vitiated (became invalid) and the question of what the hell to do about Palestine – after Britain had made a mess of it and walked away, effectively surrendering to Zionist terrorism – was taken back to the General Assembly for more discussion. The option favoured and proposed by the U.S. was temporary UN Trusteeship. It was while the General Assembly was debating what do that Israel unilaterally declared itself to be in existence – actually in defiance of the will of the organised international community, including the Truman administration.

The truth of the time was that the Zionist state, which came into being mainly as a consequence of pre-planned ethnic cleansing, had no right to exist and, more to the point, could have no right to exist UNLESS … Unless it was recognised and legitimized by those who were dispossessed of their land and their rights during the creation of the Zionist state. In international law only the Palestinians could give Israel the legitimacy it craved.

And that legitimacy was the only thing the Zionists could not and cannot take from the Palestinians by force.

No wonder Prime Minister Netanyahu is more than a little concerned on this account.

Israel’s leaders have always known the truth summarised above. It’s time for the rest of the world to know it.

Alan Hart is a former ITN and BBC Panorama foreign correspondent who covered wars and conflicts wherever they were taking place in the world and specialized in the Middle East. Author of Zionism: The Real Enemy of the Jews: The False Messiah (Zionism, the Real Enemy of the Jews). He blogs


62 Responses to “There is no legitimate State of Israel!”

  1. 1 sunnofabcrich November 5, 2009 at 2:53 am

    K, there’s way too many questionable points to take this apart one by one so I’ll just cut to the chase….

    If, supposing your assumptions are correct, what is to be done about it now?

  2. 2 theradicalmormon November 5, 2009 at 7:40 am

    For one thing, we can stop requiring Hamas to recognize Israel’s existence! In my opinion, the only way to have equality in the middle east is to open the whole of Palestine up to an election and let the people vote on what sort of government they want. You would see Zionism go down the tubes for sure. We would see what happened to South Africa when Apartheid was abolished. Suddenly there would be rule by the majority instead of a sweet deal for the minority.

  3. 3 sunnofabcrich November 6, 2009 at 1:32 am

    dude I can’t even wrap my mind around the absolute ridiculousness of that Idea… As for South Africa and Rhodesia real nice countries now huh?

  4. 4 theradicalmormon November 6, 2009 at 6:33 am

    You think South Africa is not better off without Apartheid? It is nice of you to come to my site and ridicule my ideas, but you seem to be somewhat separated from reality yourself.

  5. 5 sunnofabcrich November 7, 2009 at 12:32 am

    easy for you to say you don’t live in South Africa. Then again if you did you would probably end up living in a gated community with extreme security measures which is really kind of like apartheid anyway.

    As for your idea…. well… there are more Israelis than Palestinians.. so basically you are getting majority rule instead of a “sweet deal for the minority”

  6. 6 theradicalmormon November 7, 2009 at 8:47 am

    I suppose the extreme conditions 90% of the population were living under during Apartheid probably make today’s problems look comparatively small though the current social issues over there appear to be no laughing matter.

    Check your facts on population numbers there. There are 10 million Palestinians with about half of them living as refugees from when they were booted out in the Nakba by Israel. There are only a little over 7 million Israelis, of which 1.5 million are Israeli Arabs. As the Palestinians were forcefully removed from their homes or fled Israeli violence, the Palestinian refugees would have to have their voices heard in any sort of Palestinian referendum. The majority would have their day and Zionism would go away pretty fast.

  7. 7 sunnofabcrich November 9, 2009 at 2:41 am

    More Israelis than Palestinians actually in “palestine” So say somehow there is a vote on what to do between the Israelis and all the Palestinians including those living in other countries… What do you think the result would be? Palestinians would vote to have the Israelis leave? That would never work… back to pre-67 borders? I’m just wondering if you actually had some sort of reasonable outcome of that scenario you were talking about, because if it leads to war, well we all know who wins those… Israel…

  8. 8 theradicalmormon November 9, 2009 at 6:27 am

    Nope. I’m referring to the outcome of a one-state solution. For all of Palestine. That would be the result of that sort of a referendum. The government of the Palestinians is not pushing for a this type of a thing. However, the only truly fair outcome would be through the democratic process. Zionism would be abolished and a secular, non-Jewish religion based government would arise. Institutionalized racism would become a thing of the past. Arab Israelis and Jewish Israelis now live side by side inside of Israel and I don’t see why this could not happen throughout all of palestine as well.

    However, the possibility of a one-state solution is not discussed much in the public arena. As for a two state solution, I would be pretty happy with pre-1967 borders. Israel won’t let it happen though since Zionism means that Eretz Israel or all of biblical Israel becomes a Jewish state. Ever since the beginning, Israel has pursued a transfer policy where all who are not Jewish are forced to leave or are gradually pushed out of Palestine. The USA never accepted a Jewish nation. Eisenhower rejected the notion. I agree with Noam Chomsky when he said, “I have always supported a Jewish ethnic homeland in Palestine. That is different from a Jewish state. There’s a strong case to be made for an ethnic homeland, but as to whether there should be a Jewish state, or a Muslim state, or a Christian state, or a white state — that’s entirely another matter.” We have accepted the concept and reality of a secular state of Israel as our foreign policy and lately have leaned more and more toward accepting a Jewish state in our public comments. Obama has said that Israel should be preserved as a Jewish State.

  9. 9 sunnofabcrich November 10, 2009 at 1:59 am

    Chomsky was right about one thing… when he said he though America was the greatest country in the world…

  10. 10 theradicalmormon November 11, 2009 at 5:26 am

    You must be talking about this exchange:

    CHOMSKY: I don’t. I choose to live in what I think is the greatest country in the world, which is committing horrendous terrorist acts and should stop.

    BENNETT: I think you should say greatest — I think you should say greatest a little more often.

    CHOMSKY: If you want to be a hypocrite…

  11. 11 sunnofabcrich November 12, 2009 at 4:37 am

    Yep… either Chomsky was lying about that or was extremely reluctant to express that sentiment… either way people like you and him are never that influential because people like me don’t believe you believe in America… Do you?

  12. 12 theradicalmormon November 12, 2009 at 6:03 am

    Nope. I don’t believe in America. I believe in the Spirit of Christ that dwells in all people to some degree or another and that teaches them to do good. If all people would listen to this Spirit, we would have minimal conflict in the world. Those people who control this country do not listen to that Spirit. America is only as good as the people who make it up. Are we a good people? No more or less than the people of any other country. We are all one big family on this rock. We need to realize that and treat all of humanity the same rather than to treat those of some nations or races as lower life forms.

    The only thing great about America is it’s power and wealth. If we use that power and wealth righteously, then we will see true greatness. If we do as we do now, using our power to kill and enslave while using our wealth to enrich the already wildly rich, then we are under condemnation.

  13. 13 Forest Simmons November 13, 2009 at 12:27 am

    Amen. No question in the temple recommend interview asks us what country we belong to.

  14. 14 sunnofabcrich November 13, 2009 at 1:24 am

    then I just have to ask like Bennett asked Chomsky why do you choose to live here? and I think the “I believe in a higher law” thing a thinly veiled excuse… from your posts you seem to absolutely adore Ahmadinajead and Chavez… Maybe you think they’re listening to the Spirit of Christ?

  15. 15 Forest Simmons November 13, 2009 at 5:03 am

    Jesus didn’t believe in the Roman Empire, but he stuck around until his earthly mission was fulfilled.

  16. 16 theradicalmormon November 13, 2009 at 8:01 am

    Why should I not live here? This is where the people that I love live. If I see problems with the country of my residence should I run from them? Or should I seek to right what I see that is wrong? I don’t want to compare myself to prophets in the scriptures as I am not even close to their stature, but which prophet do you know that ran away from a wicked nation rather than preaching to them and loving them back into repentance? Mormon was such a prophet.

    As for my feelings for Ahmadinejad… He has plenty of problems to be sure. However, he speaks truth to the crimes of the US and Israel. He is the President of a nation that the US has a long history of overthrowing democracy, supporting dictators and supporting Iraq in a war against, leading to the deaths of hundreds of thousands. Additionally, hype and propaganda we are spouting about him and the nation of Iran, can’t go unanswered as much of it is untrue. We can’t go to war with Iran based on the trash that passes for intelligent politics in our nation.

    And, for Chavez, He is another that speaks the truth of US crimes against the world. Also, he is one who has done a huge amount of good for the poor of his country. The US often threatens him and uses propaganda to the max against him. Anyone who speaks truth about US crimes against the world gets my attention and support.

  17. 17 jonolan November 13, 2009 at 5:31 pm

    Yep. Great idea! Of course it’ll result in the extermination of the Jews, but that’s OK as far as your breed is concerned isn’t it?

    As for the rest of your rambling – you have no valid place upon American soil. My fervent hope is that someone puts you where you do have a valid purpose: 6 feet under America in an unmarked and unhallowed grave.

  18. 18 theradicalmormon November 13, 2009 at 5:47 pm

    There was a good article out recently about a one-state solution. It compared the hype (such as that above with Jonolan saying it will result in the extermination of the Jews) with the hype leading up to the end of Apartheid and showed how it didn’t pan out. Here’s the link for anyone interested:

    Fervently hoping for my death Jonolan? I guess that puts you in good company. I have no ill will to you. May your soul find peace.

  19. 19 jonolan November 13, 2009 at 6:26 pm

    Of course the Afrikans weren’t surrounded by people who have been threatening their existence and regularly attacking them…

    That’s not a fact that your sort wants people to remember. It would get in the way of the genocide that you want so much that you’ve turned away from the beliefs and an ideals of the country you live within in order to further it.

    Let me guess, your family were either Nazis or Danites…

  20. 20 theradicalmormon November 13, 2009 at 6:38 pm

    You mean like the Israelis surround the Palestinians, threaten their existence and regularly attack them?

    Read the article. There was a great fear of bloodshed if Apartheid was dismantled. The predictions didn’t pan out. I don’t know how it will pan out in Palestine, but it is the closest we can get to a just solution. Justice must be served there or we will continue to see the oppression of the Palestinian and his resulting anger.

    Your guesses are wrong on both counts.

  21. 21 Forest Simmons November 13, 2009 at 7:31 pm

    Jeremiah stayed in Judah to fulfill his mission even though he knew it would be destroyed because of its wickedness, stoning the prophets, denying justice to the innocent, etc.

    Nephi saw that in the latter days the devil would have dominion over the whole earth and that the dominion the saints would be small.

    The American Empire, the world’s only super power has dominion over the whole earth. Its dominions are not small. Is there any place you can go to escape the dominion of the American Empire or the dominion of the devil?

    Yes, by standing in holy places.

    The Israeli state is trying to estblish their Zion by trusting in the arm of the flesh, worshipping idols of steel. Zion can only be established on principles of righteousness.

    When the real Zion is established the Lord will dwell with his people, and as in the days of Enoc, He will protect them.

  22. 22 jonolan November 13, 2009 at 8:25 pm

    Let us start with the fact that the article was written by a Muslim terrorist or one of their sympathizers and posted on a pro-Islamist website – not a credible source for facts in any civilized person’s view.

    Then let us move back to reality. Israel and Jews whose land it is do not, unlike the Afrikans, have to worry only about savagery from their internal enemies. They are surrounded and vastly outnumbered by enemy states who have repeatedly attempted to destroy them and continue to promise that they will succeed in doing so.

    Finally, while one member or supporter of Hamas is still alive there can be no justice in a Palestinian state. Justice precludes allowing terrorists to achieve any of their aims.

  23. 23 theradicalmormon November 13, 2009 at 8:43 pm

    Well said Forest.

    Well then, this is the reason we cannot see eye to eye. Abunimah is an American who writes for the Chicago and LA newspapers. His mother was expelled from Palestine in 1948 by Jewish terrorists. His Father was the Jordanian ambassador to the UN. His site,, has nothing to do with terrorism and religion, but has everything to do with the oppression of Israel over Palestinians. Civilized people always define themselves as civilized while their crimes are hidden under their civilization. When Ghandi was asked what he thought about western civilization he said that he thought it would be a good idea. Nope, you cannot so easily dismiss this good man’s work as lacking credibility.

    Now, I am not talking about including surrounding nations in the one-state solution. The people I am talking about here are the residents of Palestine. You don’t understand that?

    Hamas is no more terrorist than the State of Israel is. In fact, Israel pretty much invented modern day terrorism in establishing themselves in the land that they unlawfully took from the Palestinians. Justice precludes all types of terrorists achieving their aims, including the terrorist regime of Zionism.

  24. 24 sunnofabcrich November 13, 2009 at 9:29 pm

    1. you can’t seek to “right what is wrong” if you don’t believe in this country in the first place and youre sure as hell not preaching and loving the USA back to repentance, you instead turn to far worse countries than the USA… was it you or the other guy that said they would like to see Chavez in charge of the USA? And Forrest youre not Jesus and this isn’t the Roman empire

  25. 25 theradicalmormon November 13, 2009 at 10:29 pm

    First step in repentance is a recognition of what you are doing is wrong. That’s where I come in.

  26. 26 sunnofabcrich November 13, 2009 at 11:33 pm

    because you have such an objective view of right and wrong… horse****.

  27. 27 jonolan November 14, 2009 at 4:10 am

    So when do you begin doing so, theradicalmormon? You’re the traitor and the genocidal antisemite. When do you begin to make matters right?

  28. 28 theradicalmormon November 14, 2009 at 6:56 am

    You apparently know very little about the situation in Palestine. You call me a genocidal anti-semite for calling for an end to Zionism and a just solution to the conflict there. I have never called for genocide of any people. It is the Zionist government which has from the beginning ethnically cleansed Palestine of Arab peoples as much as they could. Have you read the history of the State of Israel? Have you read how Israel used terrorism before Palestinians had even ever heard of the term? Have you heard how they emptied hundreds of villages of Palestinians and made them uninhabitable so there would be no return? Have you heard how in modern days, they wall off Palestine into prison cells and constantly kill or otherwise oppress the palestinians? Have you heard how many Palestinians have died waiting to cross to Israeli hospitals for medical care because they were held up at the border by Israeli soldiers for no good reason? Have you heard how Journalists are tortured like Mohammed Omer? Have you heard how non-violent activists are jailed like Mohammed Othman? Have you heard that there are something like 12,000 Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails, some of them children and many of them with no charges (administrative detainees) in a sort of twisted limbo. You have heard of Gilad Shalit, but did you hear that the day before he was captured, Israel kidnapped two Palestinian brothers and still hasn’t charged them? Have you heard that the reason the truce broke down last year was because Israel killed 6 Hamas men before any rockets were fired into Israel? Have you heard that Israel then killed 1300 Palestinians in January? Did you know that Israel steals Palestinian’s water on a continual basis, especially during the hottest months of the year? Don’t forget, water is like gold in arid climates and this is quite a big deal. Have you heard that Israel imposes a naval blockade on Gaza, which act is considered an act of war by most of the rest of the world? And with that blockade, they fire upon Gaza’s fishermen with regularity and often destroy their boats. They bulldoze Palestinian homes and force them into refugee camps. The don’t give full nationality to Arabs who live within Israel, constituting institutionalized racism as government policy. Did you know all of this and yet you still call me genocidal? Do you still think that Israel is the innocent good guys and the Palestinians are wackos with bees in their bonnets? Truly, Isaiah spoke correctly of Israel when he said:

    2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
    3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.
    4 None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.
    5 They hatch cockatrice’ eggs, and weave the spider’s web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper.
    6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.
    7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths.
    8 The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.

    I call to Israel to repent of its wickedness and look to God and live.

  29. 29 Forest Simmons November 14, 2009 at 9:31 pm

    Sun, you’re absolutely right; I am not Jesus, and I don’t live in the Roman Empire!

    However, his followers try to do what he would do if he were in similar circumstances.

    America is a bigger empire than Rome, and exercises more power over a much bigger portion of the world than Rome ever did.

    If you think that influence is all benign, then you need to read William Blum’s “Killing Hope,” and John Perkin’s “Confessions of an Economic Hit Man,” for starters.

  30. 30 sunnofabcrich November 15, 2009 at 12:27 am

    So pretty much what youre saying is that youre following in Jesus footsteps by supporting scum like Ahmadinajead and Chavez?

  31. 31 Forest Simmons November 16, 2009 at 7:09 pm

    I think that youwould agree with me that Jesus would tend to stick up for the bullied rather than the bully.

    But we have an honest disagreement about who are the bullies and who are the bullied.

    It seems to me that we have to be pretty naive to believe the corporate spin on Chavez, Morales, etc. because the corporate media are controlled by the giant corporations that are built up to get power and gain through war mongering.

    Nobody can serve two masters, and the choice is God or Mammon. Mammon means money, and money is well served by the corporate media.

  32. 32 sunnofabcrich November 17, 2009 at 2:48 am

    “corporate media” or “state-controlled media” “money=power” or “who cares how poor your country is if your the most powerful person there” but anyways… so tell me what’s the #1 great satan corporation here in the U.S.?

  33. 33 theradicalmormon November 18, 2009 at 6:03 am

    I assume you were asking Forest. I would chime in that there is no usefulness in looking for a great #1 satan corporation in the US. In general terms, the power we give corporations in this country and the way we protect corporations so that they can go about pillaging the wealth of other nations… this is what I call a secret combination. It is the marriage of filthy rich corporations to government (which is merely the shadow cast on society by these big corporations if you listen to Thomas Dewey), backed by the financial industry and defended by military might. One good example I like to turn to in showing how these sorts of things work is the United Fruit Company in Guatemala in 1954. Since the UFC didn’t like the laws the democratically elected government was putting into place there, laws that favor the poor over the wealthy corporations, they lobbied congress for a coup against that government. The US then overthrew Arbenz and installed a military dictatorship that slaughtered upwards of 200,000 people over the next few decades while corporations like UFC (later named Chiquita Banana to avoid the bad publicity associated with the UFC brand over the coup) were free to profit unrestricted by worries about human rights etc.

    Those who sit on the boards of these big MNC’s also sit on the boards of newspapers. The CIA has also infiltrated virtually every big news organization in the US as the Frank Church Senate committee found in the 1970s. Free press doesn’t exist in the USA. Chomsky’s “Manufacturing Consent” and, “Necessary Illusions” are very nice documented works into issues with corporate media in the USA. Good stuff. Highly recommended.

  34. 34 sunnofabcrich November 19, 2009 at 4:51 am

    I noticed “Al Jazeera” listed on the main page… which makes me wonder what your idea of “free press” is…

  35. 35 theradicalmormon November 19, 2009 at 6:06 am

    I notice you never substantively answer me the way I answer you. Should I assume that is because you have no answer? Do you like to come to this site just to take jabs at me with what you perceive to constitute intelligent ridicule? Do you even read my answers to your questions? When you read what I wrote above does something click inside and you finally begin to understand where someone like me is coming from?

    What do you know about Al Jazeera? Do you not realize there is huge irony in the ignorance of your question? You think Al Jazeera somehow is not free press? Do you know how much Al Jazeera is censored? Do you know that the US has bombed Al Jazeera in Iraq in what can only be a deliberate incident? Do you know that the BBC created Al Jazeera in the first place? Do you know of all of the awards Al Jazeera has won in journalistic excellence?

    Or… do you merely regurgitate what someone like Rush Limbaugh says about Al Jazeera?

    Here you go. Go educate yourself on Al Jazeera and then come back and find something else you’d like to ridicule me about. I’m patient with people like you in the hopes that even one person reading this will see reality as it is… even if it is completely lost on you.

  36. 36 sunnofabcrich November 20, 2009 at 1:51 am

    1. there’s so much about you that I find despicable I easily get distracted.

    2. I’ve had a far more intimate experience with Al Jazeera than you ever will.

    3. Al Jazeera is about par with Fox News, sorry dude but that’s really how it is… and I think you know it…

    4. “Deliberately bombed Al Jazeera” prove it.

    5. I don’t listen to Rush Limbaugh

    And last but not least take every factor that you think makes the press in the U.S. not “free” and it applies to Al Jazeera too.

  37. 37 sunnofabcrich November 20, 2009 at 2:48 am

    furthermore what do you know about KGB operations? covert operations of non US ally countries etc etc, nothing… Because here in the U.S. we have a degree of transparency not seen in the countries of your heroes… you’re a one sided one trick pony dude criticize Palestine or Iran sometime… you can’t do it can you? Say something good about the U.S.? Nope… ever heard of the press freedom index?
    Check out where Iran, Palestine and Venezuela rank…

  38. 38 theradicalmormon November 23, 2009 at 7:47 pm

    I wish you could get to know me personally. I hope then you wouldn’t find me so despicable.

    Please enlighten me on your intimate experience with Al Jazeera.

    In what way is Al Jazeera par with Fox?

    There is no absolute proof that I know of that Bush deliberately bombed Al Jazeera, but he is reported to have expressed a desire to do so in the second Downing Street memo and was dissuaded by Blair. Also, read the following:

    Al Jazeera’s offices have previously been hit by United States weaponry, although there is no proof that they were ever deliberately targeted. On 13 November 2001 a U.S. missile hit Al Jazeera’s office in Kabul, Afghanistan, during the U.S. invasion of that country. Although no Al-Jazeera staff were hurt in the attack, the building was destroyed and some employees’ homes were damaged. At the time, Mohammed Jasim al-Ali, managing editor, said that the coordinates of the office were well known to everyone including the Americans[12].

    When former British Home Secretary David Blunkett published his memoirs in late 2006, it was revealed he had advised Prime Minister Tony Blair in late March 2003 to bomb the Al Jazeera television transmitter in Baghdad. “There wasn’t a worry from me because I believed that this was a war and in a war you wouldn’t allow the broadcast to continue taking place,” Blunkett said.[2][3][4]

    On 8 April 2003 a U.S. missile hit an electricity generator at Al Jazeera’s office in Baghdad. The resulting fire killed reporter Tareq Ayyoub and wounded another staff member[13]. On 24 February, Mohammed Jasim al-Ali had sent a letter with the coordinates of the offices to Victoria Clarke, the U.S. Assistant Secretary of Defense for Public Affairs[14] (the location had not been officially requested by the U.S. government). This incident, which occurred during the U.S. assault on Baghdad and after criticism of Al Jazeera’s coverage from those supportive of the war aims of the United States forces, gave rise to suspicions that the network had been targeted.

    Frank Gaffney published an opinion piece on 29 September 2003 calling for both Al Jazeera and Al Arabiya to be “taken down” “one way or another” because they constitute “enemy media”[15][16].

    Anyone familiar with US history with foreign opposition press would have a high suspicion that these were deliberate attacks.

    I’m glad you don’t listen to Rush. Good choice.

    You might have a good point in the last paragraph of the comment two comments above this one.

    As for your last comment, I am not here to make other nations in the world act good. I know that other nations have problems, crimes against humanity etc. However, my country is the one with the greatest power in the world. We have the hugest military bar none. We spend more money on weapons of death and destruction than the rest of the world combined. We sell more weapons to the rest of the world than anyone else. We have great potential for good and bad and we choose to do the bad most of the time and the poor people of the world suffer because of it.

    As far as transparency goes, most of the stuff I get I have to dig for. The information is out there but our system of media control is so finely tuned that it rarely gets into the newspapers. When it does it is usually shut down quickly. Gary Webb’s excellent expose on the CIA and drug dealing with the San Jose Mercury News is an excellent example of that.

    I’m not here to take down the mom and pop crooks of the world. I’m going straight for the jugular of the great secret combination of the last days. We’re living right in the middle of it.

  39. 39 SUNNofaB.C.Rich November 25, 2009 at 2:09 am

    I was going to write a longer explanation but i’ll just summarize it by telling you I served in Iraq for two years.

  40. 40 theradicalmormon November 25, 2009 at 6:26 am

    Sorry to hear. Hope you don’t have to go back to that very soon.

  41. 41 Forest Simmons November 27, 2009 at 9:02 pm


    forty years ago last September I returned from my two years in Vietnam as a regular army enlisted man. I still believed all of the propaganda about how we were responding to an appeal of a Democracy in the South to save them from invasion by the North, etc.

    Then I served a two year full time mission in South America, and came home equally clueless about American foreign policy in South America.

    After graduating from BYU I went to graduate school in Austin Texas for four years, and taught another four years at North Texas State University … without making any progress in understanding of American Foreign Policy.

    It wasn’t until our invasion of Panama years later that I started to open my eyes.

    If I had had Blum’s, “Killing Hope,” or Perkins’, “Confessions of an Economic Hit Man,” back then it would have really speeded things up.

    The “Fawning Corporate Media” or the FCM, as Ray McGovern calls it, is very good at keeping a happy face on the exploits of the American Empire.

    “Examine everything and keep what’s valuable,” was Paul’s advice in the New Testament.

    If I can find out something true from Fox News, I’ll keep it. But I know that whatever I read and whatever I hear, I have to filter it carefully. I tend to find more valuable stuff in “Counterpunch” than the FCM, but there’s a lot of garbage there, too.

    The Book of Mormon is a valuable standard. It has more to say about us than most people realize.

    It makes the point that, like the Nephites of old, we have been highly favored, both materially and with opportunities for knowing the fulness of the gospel.

    And consequently the Lord holds us, like the Nephites of old, to a higher standard than he does the rest of the world.

    The Nephites of old were destroyed because they sinned against great light and knowledge, and because they sought power and gain, and they sought revenge and vengeance on those who offended them.

    History is getting repeated.

    The Lord uses the unenlightened wicked to destroy the once enlightened wicked who refused to act according to the light and knowledge entrusted to them; then the gospel goes to the destroyers, who then gladly repent … in time to save themselves, but too late to save the destroyed. See e.g. Helaman chapters 3, 4, and 5. Samuel the Lamanite makes the point again later in Helaman; the Lord has “hated the Lamanites and loved the Nephites,” therefore when they both become ripe in sin, the Nephites would be destroyed by the lamanites, who would survive for another chance in the Last Days.

    Now, if we totally wiped out all of the corrupt corporations that are built up to get power and gain, but did nothing to change the tyrannical system that engendered them in the first place, then other corporations would soon rise up in their places, and the world would be no better off.

    So it’s no use in trying to decide whether Monsanto or Blackwater is worse. They are just opportunistic types that say, “If we didn’t take advantage of the opportunity, somebody else would.”

    They’re absolutely right about that, but of couorse it doesn’t excuse them or absolve them from their responsibility for the harm and suffering they have caused.

  42. 42 SUNNofaB.C.Rich December 4, 2009 at 4:07 am

    Did you say that “the lord” holds ME as an American more responsible than the rest of the world? interesting… but that seems unlikely… From your BoM reference it sounds like youre saying figuratively that the U.S. is the nephites and the rest of the world is the lamanites? That’s a bit of a stretch…

  43. 43 Forest Simmons December 6, 2009 at 1:06 am

    Where much is given much is required.

    The BoM is highly specific about the accountability that accrues with prosperity and opportunities for knowledge.

    One of many such passages is this one (contrasting the Nephites and Lamanites in this regard) from Helaman 15:

    1 And now, my beloved [Nephite] brethren, behold, I declare unto you that except ye shall repent your houses shall be left unto you desolate.
    3 Yea, wo unto this people who are called the people of Nephi except they shall repent, when they shall see all these signs and wonders which shall be showed unto them; for behold, they have been a chosen people of the Lord; yea, the people of Nephi hath he loved, and also hath he chastened them; yea, in the days of their iniquities hath he chastened them because he loveth them.
    4 But behold my brethren, the Lamanites hath he hated because their deeds have been evil continually, and this because of the iniquity of the tradition of their fathers. But behold, salvation hath come unto them through the preaching of the Nephites; and for this intent hath the Lord prolonged their days.
    their faith in Christ.

    11 Yea, even if they should dwindle in unbelief the Lord shall prolong their days, until the time shall come which hath been spoken of by our fathers, and also by the prophet Zenos, and many other prophets, concerning the restoration of our brethren, the Lamanites, again to the knowledge of the truth—
    12 Yea, I say unto you, that in the latter times the promises of the Lord have been extended to our brethren, the Lamanites; and notwithstanding the many afflictions which they shall have, and notwithstanding they shall be driven to and fro upon the face of the earth, and be hunted, and shall be smitten and scattered abroad, having no place for refuge, the Lord shall be merciful unto them.
    13 And this is according to the prophecy, that they shall again be brought to the true knowledge, which is the knowledge of their Redeemer, and their great and true shepherd, and be numbered among his sheep.
    14 Therefore I say unto you, it shall be better for them than for you except ye repent.
    15 For behold, had the mighty works been shown unto them which have been shown unto you, yea, unto them who have dwindled in unbelief because of the traditions of their fathers, ye can see of yourselves that they never would again have dwindled in unbelief.
    16 Therefore, saith the Lord: I will not utterly destroy them, but I will cause that in the day of my wisdom they shall return again unto me, saith the Lord.
    17 And now behold, saith the Lord, concerning the people of the Nephites: If they will not repent, and observe to do my will, I will utterly destroy them, saith the Lord, because of their unbelief notwithstanding the many mighty works which I have done among them; and as surely as the Lord liveth shall these things be, saith the Lord.

    Another such passage specific to us Gentiles is this (from 3 Nephi 16:

    6 And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father.
    7 Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.
    8 But wo, saith the Father, unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles—for notwithstanding they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel; and my people who are of the house of Israel have been cast out from among them, and have been trodden under feet by them;
    9 And because of the mercies of the Father unto the Gentiles, and also the judgments of the Father upon my people who are of the house of Israel, verily, verily, I say unto you, that after all this, and I have caused my people who are of the house of Israel to be smitten, and to be afflicted, and to be slain, and to be cast out from among them, and to become hated by them, and to become a hiss and a byword among them—
    10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.
    11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.
    12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.
    13 But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.
    14 And I will not suffer my people, who are of the house of Israel, to go through among them, and tread them down, saith the Father.
    15 But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of my people, O house of Israel.

    The warning is repeated in chapters 20 and 21, for example …

    15 And I say unto you, that if the Gentiles do not repent after the blessing which they shall receive, after they have scattered my people—
    16 Then shall ye, who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, go forth among them; and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many; and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he goeth through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

    and in chapter 21…

    4 For it is wisdom in the Father that they [we American Gentiles] should be established in this land, and be set up as a free people by the power of the Father, that these things might come forth from them unto a remnant of your seed, that the covenant of the Father may be fulfilled which he hath covenanted with his people, O house of Israel;
    5 Therefore, when these works and the works which shall be wrought among you hereafter shall come forth from the Gentiles, unto your seed which shall dwindle in unbelief because of iniquity;
    6 For thus it behooveth the Father that it should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel;

    11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him [Joseph Smith, Jr.] to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.
    12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.
    13 Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off.
    14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;
    15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;

  44. 44 Forest Simmons December 7, 2009 at 11:52 pm

    Hee’s a few more BoM quotes pertaining to the danger of having been an “highly favored” people without repenting:

    Mosiah 1: 13
    13 Yea, and moreover I say unto you, that if this highly favored people of the Lord should fall into transgression, and become a wicked and an adulterous people, that the Lord will deliver them up, that thereby they become weak like unto their brethren; and he will no more preserve them by his matchless and marvelous power, as he has hitherto preserved our fathers.

    Alma 9: 20-21, 23-24
    20 Yea, after having been such a highly favored people of the Lord; yea, after having been favored above every other nation, kindred, tongue, or people; after having had all things made known unto them, according to their desires, and their faith, and prayers, of that which has been, and which is, and which is to come;
    21 Having been visited by the Spirit of God; having conversed with angels, and having been spoken unto by the voice of the Lord; and having the spirit of prophecy, and the spirit of revelation, and also many gifts, the gift of speaking with tongues, and the gift of preaching, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and the gift of translation;
    • • •
    23 And now behold I say unto you, that if this people, who have received so many blessings from the hand of the Lord, should transgress contrary to the light and knowledge which they do have, I say unto you that if this be the case, that if they should fall into transgression, it would be far more tolerable for the Lamanites than for them.
    24 For behold, the promises of the Lord are extended to the Lamanites, but they are not unto you if ye transgress; for has not the Lord expressly promised and firmly decreed, that if ye will rebel against him that ye shall utterly be destroyed from off the face of the earth?

    Ether 2: 11
    11 And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God—that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.

    Ether 8: 23-24
    23 Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.
    24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.

  45. 45 SUNNofaB.C.Rich December 8, 2009 at 1:55 am

    ok so you say that because the USA has a percentage of mormons in it our foreign policy should be more “righteous” than other countries…

    So how does Islam fit into the picture?

  46. 46 Forest Simmons December 8, 2009 at 7:48 pm

    Do you think that it is because of the presence of a few Mormons that the Lord has prospered this land above all others? I don’t, and I don’t know where you got that impression. That’s a very strange idea. I’ve never heard of anything quite as ridiculous.

    There are more Mormons outside of the USA than in it. There were no Mormons here when the Mayflower arrived, yet the Lord blessed the Pilgrims and their descendants with great opportunities. Don’t we acknowledge that fact every year with a turkey dinner?

    There were no Mormons here at the time of the Revolutionary War. Yet the Book of Mormon (See Chapter 13 of First Nephi, for example) makes it clear that it was the Lord who delivered the colonists out of the hands of the “Mother Gentiles.” Don’t we celebrate that fact every year with firecrackers?

    Who can deny that citizens of this country (not just Mormons) have had greater prosperity, greater security, and greater opportunities than any other people in the world?

    The Pilgrims brought the Holy Bible with them, so we have had that knowledge since the inception of the colonies. On top of that our fellow countrymen in the nineteenth century were the first to get the opportunity of reading the Book of Mormon.

    But we have largely rejected the Book of Mormon, and give mostly lip service to the Bible, which says that no man can serve both God and Mammon.

    You asked about the Muslims. We can liken them to the Lamanites of old. They have less of the truth than we do, (little Bible knowledge, very few have heard of the Book of Mormon; basically they have only the Koran) so not as much is required of them. Yet, by and large, they have lived up to the portion of truth that they have been given, more than we have lived up to the portion given us.

    Unlike them, we are subject to the cursing that goes with possession of this land of promise:

    This blessing and cursing is repeated throughout the Book of Mormon; whosoever possesses this land shall prosper while righteous, but when fully ripe in iniquity shall be destroyed as the previous inhabitants have been.

    Every previous civilization on this land has been destroyed. So to us The Book of Mormon is a warning, but to most of the rest of the world, i.e. to the “outcasts of Israel,” i.e. to the scattered remnants of Jacob, i.e. what we call the “third world,” The BoM is the very good news that the five centuries of Gentile oppression (Western European Imperialism) are fast coming to an end.

    Western Imperialism will end. We have no choice about that. The Lord has promised to bare his Holy Arm and end it.

    But it is up to us how it will end for each of us. Will we be destroyed as the inhabitants have hitherto been destroyed? Or will we repent and assist the outcasts of Israel, i.e. the scattered remnants, i.e. the third world poor, in building up the New Jerusalem?

  47. 47 SUNNofaB.C.Rich December 9, 2009 at 1:58 am

    here’s an idea, string all your ideas together and then maybe you’ll see what kind of conclusions people can possibly draw from your rantings… first it’s mormonism that causes the USA to be blessed/cursed then it’s christianity then it’s just being in this geographical area… you say 5 hundred years of iniquity and that God is going to destroy the US (what about canada…) when the iniquity is fully ripe… seems to me we’ve come a long way since the 17th 18th 19th centuries… etc etc and what about Europe? Do they get a curse too? How about Hawaii and Alaska is it just the continental U.S.? Also I thought the US was going to get saved at the last minute by some guys from the mountains or something… anyways you’re probably going to accidentally blow yourself up with a home made pipe bomb one of these days so, whatever man…

  48. 48 SUNNofaB.C.Rich December 9, 2009 at 2:30 am

    also you seem to alternate between saying the people who are cursed are “Gringos” (your words) and basically all the inhabitants of the U.S.

  49. 49 Forest Simmons December 11, 2009 at 2:51 am

    I’m sorry you are having a hard time sorting these things out. I suggest that you prayerfully read through the Book of Mormon with careful attention to those passages that I have cited in my answers to you on this topic over the last several months. The more you read them, the clearer it will get.

    The biggest key to understanding these passages (besides prayer itself) is knowing who the Book of Mormon authors are referring to when they say “Gentiles” in the context of the 500 plus years since Columbus made his voyage.

    Basically he means the European Colonizers and their descendants. However, the Europeans from Spain and Portugal mixed in with the scattered remnants of Jacob that were already here, so that most Latin Americans are not counted as Gentiles, though the members of elite society in Latin American countries have not mixed in to the same degree.

    Nephi says that he beheld that the Gentiles were white like his descendants were before they got mixed with the Lamanites or were destroyed (some of each). This excludes people of color from the category of “Gentile” in Book of Mormon usage.

    So who are the Gentiles? They are largely the American settlers from Northern Europe, those that the Latinos would mostly call, “Gringos.”

    This is similar to the usage of Saint Paul in the New Testament in his day. He used “Greek” and “Gentile” interchangeably. Since “Gringo” in Spanish is derived from their word “Griego” for “Greek,” we have a remarkable case of linguistic convergence.

  50. 50 SUNNofaB.C.Rich December 11, 2009 at 4:49 am

    well you can’t have it all different ways is the blessing/curse applied to all inhabitants of the U.S. only white inhabitants of the U.S. all white people of northern European descent wherever they live or is it just whatever suits you at that particular time.

  51. 51 Forest Simmons December 12, 2009 at 2:16 am

    It seems to me that it will be similar to what happened in Helaman 4 and 3 Nephi 8. In both cases, although most of the white people were destroyed, the more righteous part of them was spared and given a chance to repent. In both cases, the people of color were largely spared.

    In the first case the Nephites were over run by the Lamanites and the survivors became refugees. In the second case there was large scale destruction by natural disasters, volcanoes, earthquakes, typhoons, tsunamis, etc. We will see both of these in our lifetimes, if I am not mistaken.

    Here’s what Jesus said to the survivors: …

    3 Ne. 9: 13 O all ye that are spared because ye were more righteous than they, will ye not now return unto me, and repent of your sins, and be converted, that I may heal you?

    and Mormon commented …

    3 Ne. 10: 12 And it was the more righteous part of the people who were saved, and it was they who received the prophets and stoned them not; and it was they who had not shed the blood of the saints, who were spared—

    Also with regard to our near future Jeremiah and Nephi, respectively, said the following …

    Jer. 46: 28
    28 Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the Lord: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.

    1 Ne. 22: 16-23
    16 For the time soon cometh that the fulness of the wrath of God shall be poured out upon all the children of men; for he will not suffer that the wicked shall destroy the righteous.
    17 Wherefore, he will preserve the righteous by his power, even if it so be that the fulness of his wrath must come, and the righteous be preserved, even unto the destruction of their enemies by fire. Wherefore, the righteous need not fear; for thus saith the prophet, they shall be saved, even if it so be as by fire.
    18 Behold, my brethren, I say unto you, that these things must shortly come; yea, even blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke must come; and it must needs be upon the face of this earth; and it cometh unto men according to the flesh if it so be that they will harden their hearts against the Holy One of Israel.
    19 For behold, the righteous shall not perish; for the time surely must come that all they who fight against Zion shall be cut off.
    20 And the Lord will surely prepare a way for his people, unto the fulfilling of the words of Moses, which he spake, saying: A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass that all those who will not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people.
    21 And now I, Nephi, declare unto you, that this prophet of whom Moses spake was the Holy One of Israel; wherefore, he shall execute judgment in righteousness.
    22 And the righteous need not fear, for they are those who shall not be confounded. But it is the kingdom of the devil, which shall be built up among the children of men, which kingdom is established among them which are in the flesh—
    23 For the time speedily shall come that all churches which are built up to get gain, and all those who are built up to get power over the flesh, and those who are built up to become popular in the eyes of the world, and those who seek the lusts of the flesh and the things of the world, and to do all manner of iniquity; yea, in fine, all those who belong to the kingdom of the devil are they who need fear, and tremble, and quake; they are those who must be brought low in the dust; they are those who must be consumed as stubble; and this is according to the words of the prophet.


    I’m glad that you want to get all of this straight in your mind. Many people have read the Book of Mormon many times to put the pieces of the puzzle together. I hope that the clues I have shared with you will facilitate your personal quest to understand the prophetic Book of Mormon. But you have to do your part. There can be a great deal of satisfaction in taking personal responsibility for your own understanding of the scriptures.

  52. 52 SUNNofaB.C.Rich December 12, 2009 at 2:45 am

    sure, basically you think that this blessing/curse that supposedly comes with living in the continental united states is mostly aimed at caucasian people with maybe some collateral damage of people of color, which really does not seem plausible. Look at the aftermath of hurricane Katrina. America is a melting pot, my wife is Hispanic my kid is half etc etc.

    Your idea of a God who has different standards for diferent people based on their skin color is, to me, unsophisticated…

  53. 53 Forest Simmons December 12, 2009 at 11:27 pm

    Is it the people of color or the white people that are most lifted up in their pride, war profiteering, oppressing the poor, etc.?

    The skin color is incidental, but it happens to highly correlate with proud and powerful versus humble and oppressed.

  54. 54 Forest Simmmons December 13, 2009 at 12:53 am


    The following parable from the Gospel of Luke has two main applications … one ancient and one modern. Can you guess them?

    Luke 14: 16-24
    16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
    17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
    18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
    19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
    20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
    21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
    22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
    23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
    24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

  55. 55 SUNNofaB.C.Rich December 14, 2009 at 2:52 am

    I can guess your application, God invites me, a white guy but I don’t show up because i’m too busy living in the continental U.S. being a war profiteer and oppressing the poor or maybe I do show up because my ancestors are from eastern Europe where nobodys evil (That’s a quality exclusive to the U.S. and Israel, the whiter you are the more evil you are…) So God invites Hugo Chavez and Ahmadinajead and maybe Ghaddafi and Osama Bin Laden(because they’re not white and they have no concept of right and wrong)

  56. 56 Forest Simmons December 14, 2009 at 11:01 pm

    Jesus was telling his disciples that the Jews had received the first invitation, but that the rich and proud among them were largely rejecting it, so the invitation would be extended to the Gentiles who soon would out number the Jewish members of the Church, even though at first, Christianity was considered primarily a Jewish sect.

    How was it that the Jews received the first invitation to the gospel supper? Why was Jesus born among them? Was it not because of the promises made unto their faithful ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

    The Book of Mormon makes clear that Jesus visited all of the scatterd sheep of the House of Israel shortly after his resurrection. So this first invitation extended to all of the House of Israel, not just the Jews in Jerusalem. Yet within a few centuries they had all fallen away. The Nephites and Lamanites, for example, had largely abandoned His teachings after four generations.

    Now in our day the situation has been reversed. In our days the Gentiles have had the first invitation, but are now in their pride largely rejecting it. Missionaries are being sent in ever larger numbers to the humbler, more receptive people, the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Although Mormonism was first considered an American religion, the Gentiles are fast becoming a minority in the church.

    Why did the Gentiles get the first invitation to the restored gospel supper? Why did the Book of Mormon come forth first among the Gentiles?

    The Book of Mormon says that it was to give the Gentiles a fair chance to repent and be numbered among the House of Israel. Some Gentiles have repented, and many more will, but most will not.

    As Jesus said, “But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.”

    So we see that race is not the determining factor. The same scripture that was good news to the humble Gentiles and bad news to the proud Jews two thousand years ago is now good news to the humble remnants of the House of Israel and bad news to the proud and unrepentant among the Gentiles.

  57. 57 SUNNofaB.C.Rich December 15, 2009 at 1:30 am

    right right well this has been thought provoking… so just out interest, off topic and all do you consider yourself an anarchist? I’m not leading up to anything with that just wondering…

  58. 58 Forest Simmons December 15, 2009 at 9:49 pm

    All labels of political stripe have been corrupted through blatant and flagrant misuse, so I will try to express my position without much recourse to the standard labels.

    I believe that concentration of economical and political wealth and power in the hands of a few elite inevitably leads to tyrannical abuse of power and oppression of the rest of society.

    Concetrated power and wealth go hand in hand because welath is used to purchase power, and power is used to protect wealth.

    What can be done to keep wealth and power from being concentrated into the hands of a small percentage of the population?

    “Democracy” is a partial answer to the question. But what form (if any) of democracy is immune to corruption by power and wealth?

    The other answerr is education, i.e. spreading truth.

    I hope to be part of the solution.

  59. 59 Forest Simmons December 15, 2009 at 10:29 pm


    you haven’t said much about your own beliefs.

    It seems to me that you want to do your part in society towards a better world. Otherwise you wouldn’t have been willing to risk your neck to fulfill your military duty commitment.

    What are your current ideas along these lines?

  60. 60 SUNNofaB.C.Rich December 22, 2009 at 2:36 am

    These days, I do what’s best for me, not society.

  61. 61 Forest Simmons December 23, 2009 at 9:22 pm

    It sounds like you’re in survival mode.

    I can understand that after what you’ve been through.

    Best let society fend for itself now, and concentrate on you and your family.

    The greatest work we can do is in our own homes. It’s a great responsibility, but there are good people willing to help. That’s one of the main purposes and benefits of our church.

  62. 62 SUNNofaB.C.Rich December 30, 2009 at 1:21 am

    I can agree with that… Happy holidays

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